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CSPAN

Moderator: Peter Slen

April 6, 2008

PETER SLEN: There are 67 million Catholics in the United States and the leader of their faith, Pope Benedict XVI, is coming next week in an official visit to Washington and New York. He will be greeted by and meet with President Bush, as well as speak at the United Nations.

Joining us on Newsmakers to discuss this visit is the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Cardinal Francis George, who is also archbishop of Chicago. Here to question Jay Tolson of U.S. News & World Report and Cathy Grossman, who covers religion for USA Today.

Cardinal George, if I may start the questioning, how will the Pope address, with President Bush, in particular and his speech at the UN, his very vocal opposition to the Iraq War?

CARDINAL FRANCIS GEORGE, PRESIDENT U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: I really don’t know. I would hazard to guess, however that he’ll do it in the general context of his desire for peace. The United Nations was created, as you know, after the second World War, to be sure there would be no more world wars and as few conflicts as possible and so, since that’s the goal of the United Nations and its his goal, as well, I imagine he’ll do it in that context.

What he will say personally to the president I also have no way of knowing.

SLEN: Has the Vatican’s vocal opposition to the war hindered U.S.-Vatican relations?

GEORGE: Well, it hasn’t hindered relations with the church. I’m not sure how it as affected relations with the government. The opposition to our going into Iraq was clear. The concern for how we get out is also very clear and the holy sea (ph) hopes that we will leave a pacified Iraq. That is one where the Iraqi people themselves are able to control their future, hopefully, by democratic means and I think that goal is shared by our administration, as well. The difficult is how to reach that goal and what are the proper means to do that.

SLEN: Jay Tolson.

JAY TOLSON, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: Yes, Cardinal George, many people are looking forward to this address to Catholic educators, very much, with great expectations; perhaps, greater expectations than are merited but some people say that he will – the Holy Father will address issues of campus life and I’d like to bring up, just one, its been fairly widely talked about, Archbishop Gomez (ph), in San Antonio, has been very upset about Saint Mary’s University, in San Antonio, hosting Hillary Clinton, the candidate because she has pro abortion views and he thinks that its inconsistent with the identity of a Catholic university to have such speakers come on to campus. What is your own thought about what the pope will be saying on matters, such as this?

GEORGE: I think Archbishop Gomez (ph) reflects the statement of the Conference of Bishops, several years ago that asked that people, who, in their public life, support the private killings of those who aren’t yet born, not be honored or appear on Catholic university campuses, except, in very, very restricted circumstances, perhaps, in a conference of some sort with others but that they would not be honored is something that we’ve asked universities to respect here. That is our policy. The pope, I think, will speak to the president’s and the Superintendents of Schools, in the light of exportia clasia (ph), to document our Catholic higher education from the heart of the church that was published under Pope John Paul II and it doesn’t go into that kind of detail. It talks about the general ethos that should determine how decisions of that sort are made on the Catholic campus.

CATHY GROSSMAN, USA TODAY: Well, Cardinal George, let me ask you, how this marries with the bishop’s document on faithful citizenship. On faithful citizenship, it’s fairly clear that the voter is supposed to avoid intrinsic evils, however, Catholics are not single issue voters and campuses are not single issue places. If Hillary Clinton is there to speak on economics or Barack Obama is there to speak on the Iraq war – both of them have a pro-choice stance – it would mean that for example, only John McCain would be allowed on the Catholic campus, which I think would be a tilt that Catholic universities would not necessarily want to take. How will the pope address this question about voters’ intent? How voters face the dilemma of candidates who conflict with the church on life issues but who are in accord with the church on issues of peace; on issues of social justice?

GEORGE: Well, first of all, there’s a distinction between the conscience of an institution and the conscience of an individual. The bishop’s document on faithful citizenship talks to individual consciences. I think that the pope would address it. If he does and very closely to the way we addressed it; that is, there’s a hierarchy of issues. It’s not just a smorgasbord, where I’m force some and I’m against others. There’s a clear hierarchy beginning with the protection of innocent life, particularly, in the womb and then, the need to protect that life after its born and that’s evidenced by Catholic Charities and the immense amount of Catholic healthcare that’s available, particularly, in the third world.

So, the solution that we present for consideration, on the part of individuals forming their conscience, is to say, here’s Catholic social teaching and there’s a hierarchy of concerns around the protection of life; the protection of the family; the avoidance of war and then, if there’s no program or candidate that perfectly conforms to that and I’m not aware of any who is, what do you do to form your conscience in order to vote well? You bring in two other considerations, in the first part of that document about the quality of the candidates and what you can do in order to avoid the evils that are consequent upon the election of someone who doesn’t respect human life and I think the Holy Father will probably address that in much the same terms, we’ll see.

GROSSMAN: Well, the Holy Father is also known to be a very gracious man but also, you know, he has a steely orthodoxy but it’s presented in a very gracious format, is he likely …

GEORGE: It sounds like you’re describing Jesus.

GROSSMAN: Well, this is a description given of him by the papal ambassador.

GEORGE: OK.

GROSSMAN: Who, I’m sure, is a big fan of the pope’s but is he going to – there are many conservatives who would like him to come here and take a lot of the American institutions and individuals to the woodshed; that they’ve strayed too far from president – from orthodoxy. Is he going to scold people or is he going to sort of gently encourage them forward?

GEORGE: Well, again, I don’t know but I doubt that he would come to scold. He wants to preach about hope and that’s the theme and we’ve placed our hope in sources that have disappointed us, in the last century, for sure and so, he wants to focus our hope and of course, he’s the pope. He’ll focus our hope on the redemption offered us in Jesus Christ.

From that general statement, you go down into a lot of other areas, as you’re indicating but if you’re talking about hope, you want to encourage people, first of all and I’m sure that’s he will do. That’s what every pastor tries to do. Then, if, in the light of that encouragement, there still is a certain lack of conversion to the faith, then, he would point that out. I don’t know exactly how he will handle this with Catholic universities that I think are trying, for the most part, to be catholic but in a very pluralistic society and sometimes they make right choices and sometimes, they make choices that are very, very bad.

TOLSON: Well, Cardinal George that raises a larger question, whether or not, it’s your role to scold or take to the woodshed American institutions; politicians; government policies. Do you think that the Catholic Church here, in America, has a role for that?

GEORGE: We try to handle that as pastors. So, each bishop is a pastor of his diocese and he addresses the issues as they, you know, are presented to him by individuals and by institutions, in the diocese. Our relationship to Catholic institutions is very different, depending, if they’re just Catholic but not diocesan or if they’re also diocesan, like, a parish.

So, generally, the first approach is to talk to the person, individually and say, do you see what you’re doing and do you find any problem with it and that is always the way. It’s the same way we address war. There are times when you can go to war to defend yourself but first, you should talk and be sure that all possibilities of talking been exhausted, so I think each bishop handles it a little differently but that’s the general approach. First, you try to handle it privately and not embarrass anyone but try to maintain the order in the Catholic institution that should be there.

After that – so sometimes, there are penalties. In the Code of Canon Law there are different possibilities that are open but again, the code is quite clear because it protects individuals from the occasional mad bishop, if you like, so you have to govern according to the code and the church is not a dictatorship and it’s not an anarchy. It has its own law and even pastoral practice is governed by that so I think we try to handle it privately, as I said and then, if necessary, there are other sanctions.

TOLSON: Cardinal George, obviously, a big issue on the minds of many American Catholics is this still festering wound of the sexual abuse scandal and it’s, obviously, been hugely costly to the American Catholic church, approaching some $1.5 billion, I think, in settlement fees and costing the moral authority of the clergy, throughout the country, in many cases. Of course, there are many American Catholics who feel that not enough has yet been done. That they would look forward to a very strong statement by the pope, when he’s here and in fact, many of the voice of the faithful people, I talked to, were very disappointed that he wasn’t making Boston part of his trip; that many felt that that would’ve been an important symbolic gesture, a sign of reconciliation; a sign of showing compassion and concern for the victims.

On the other hand, I’ve talked with other Catholics, including, those in the clergy; bishops, like Bishop Berskowitz (ph), who feel that a lot has been done. In fact, enough has been done and that the perpetual picking at the wound is – only makes matters worse. What do you think – how do you think the pope is going to negotiate this very delicate issue?

GEORGE: Well that’s an obvious question and an important one. First of all, I would say that there are many Catholics, as well as, many others who don’t know what has been done; that there is no priest in public ministry, in the church, now, who’s ever been of this, provided that there is some evidence that the charge is accurate. All incidents are reported to the civil authorities and have been, in the archdiocese (INAUDIBLE) for many years; 20 years. So there are a lot of other issues around this, including, its place in the general context of the sexual mores in our society that we’ve addressed or tried to that aren’t known and I imagine the pope might bring some of that up, to say what has been done but I’m also quite sure that he will apologize, again, as the American bishops have publicly and privately many, many times. So, I would be very sure that he will address it, maybe, on several occasions and he will express, particularly, a deep pastoral concern for the victims.

We’ve all talked to people and recognize the longstanding effects of sexual abuse on young men, young women who have been abused as minors. It isn’t something that can be simply handled, even by settlements. So, I think, the pope is very aware of this as prefect of the congregation. (INAUDIBLE) he read the reports and it bothers him immensely that children have been abused by priests or bishops. This is a complete betrayal of our own office and of Jesus Christ and of our Catholic people. He’s very clear on that and I imagine he’ll express forcefully.

GROSSMAN: Cardinal George, he’s not only going to be coming to address the Catholics of America, he’s really going to be addressing – he’s going to be addressing the national leadership, as well. He’s going to be meeting at the White House. He’s going to go to ground zero, which is really a civic shrine. What is his value and his import to the non-Catholic who’s going to be observing this visit? How does the papal visit make a difference to people who aren’t Catholic?

GEORGE: I think it would be best to talk to some of them. I don’t want to talk for non-Catholics. I don’t even talk for Catholics. I talk for the faith.

The visit to the president is, of course, protocol. This is first time coming to the country that he’s visited any times before but never as pope. He’s coming to be received by the head of state of the country he’s visiting and I’m sure that they’ll talk about items that each one wants to discuss with the other.

As far as, the public conversation, is concerned, I think the speech at the United Nations, to the whole world, is going to be of great importance and that’s really why he’s coming at this time. Part of the consideration of his coming, one of the reasons we thought it might not be so wise, is because we’re in the midst of a political campaign and the church (INAUDIBLE) co-opted or instumentalized (ph) very easily in most campaigns.

So, he’s coming, however, because this is when the United Nations General Assembly meets, so that speech to the United Nation’s is of major importance. It’s what brings him here at this time. Along with that of course, is the 200th anniversary of, you know, for our first diocese is in (INAUDIBLE) Baltimore, so he’ll speak about the church. But you’re right, of course, he will speak to others just by reason of the fact that he’s a world leader and a religious leader and he’s speaking to a country where religion is of great importance in private and public life.

So I would hope that they would understand that he’s speaking, first of all, as the leader of the Catholic Church, as the universal pastor; the successor of Peter and that’s always the prism through which he must see everything but in looking at that he sees us, perhaps, more clearly than we see ourselves. From the viewpoint of the holy sea (ph) of Conchasalar (ph) or Kuala Lumpur ph are as an important as Chicago, even though, Chicagoans don’t like to hear that so he will have something to say that I think might help us to situate ourselves in a world where we suddenly realize we’re not always acceptable and that people don’t see us the way we see ourselves. I hope he will help us to see ourselves as the world sees us.

TOLSON: Well, one way, Cardinal George that non-Catholics, in America, really, depend, let’s say, on the Catholic church is in a realm of social services, not just education and Catholic schools but also hospitals, which have been – I think the church is the second biggest provider of those services, in this country.

GEORGE: That’s right and Catholic charity services.

TOLSON: And Catholic charities – but there is, as we all know, a huge strain on the personnel, within the Catholic Church today. I mean, simply, the loss of say 17,000 priests, the number of priests since 1965. I think there are now more than 3,000 parishes without priests but an even more dramatic decline in the number of sisters, religious sisters the real backbone of hospitals and of schools. I think a drop of close to 116,000 sisters since 1965. This sort of struggle that is going on within the church to keep its own clergy; its own personnel up and the growing need for laypeople, lay Catholics to take up the slack, is a big concern to many non-Catholics and to make it more particular, do you think that the pope is going to make some kind of gesture toward laypeople, in the church, including, lay – Eucharistic lay ministers. Some people, for example, think that by not having Eucharistic lay ministers at any of the big public masses that the pope is missing an opportunity.

GEORGE: Well, there are several questions there, aren’t there, OK?

TOLSON: Well, then, just answer any one.

GEORGE: Thank you. The fact that a decrease in Catholic-ordained priests and consecrated women and men would’ve come to the notice of non-Catholics in the way that causes them concern is something I’d like to hear more about. I haven’t thought about it. It’s interesting. I’m glad to hear it but I wasn’t aware of that.

If you mean to say, simply that the services are, therefore, more threatened, the services that are associated with Catholic charities and with hospitals and with educational institutions, are done by Catholic laypeople and so, I think that from that perspective, we might ask, if they’re done quite as well? I think, in many cases, better; in some cases worse.

As far as recognizing Eucharistic ministers who are there, as they’re called extraordinarily so, because they replace priests for that particular instance, I wasn’t thinking of that either but you’re right. I’m sure in the papal masses, it’ll be more than enough for an ordained priest to distribute communion but that doesn’t mean that the pope isn’t aware of the fact that there are many, now, commissioned and approved ministers who are laypeople baptized and confirmed, who are picking up a lot of the ministry that might have been done formally by consecrated religiousists (ph) or by ordained priests. The pope is quite aware of that and I think it’s very well done, in many cases, in this country. The restoration of the deaconess (ph) since the council has enabled us to keep even the sacramental ministry available.

Lay ministry has its place, in the church and it’s an assured place, no matter the number of priests or consecrated women and men. Will he recognize that in some fashion? He may. I’m not quite sure.

The other question, though, the larger question you’re asking is a very important one and the bishops have thought about it a lot. That is, what does that say to us if, in fact, we’re not able to call men to the priesthood and women and men to consecrated life in numbers that we used to have? Some of its demographic and some of it’s a matter of the change of culture, particularly, the change in the position of women in our culture. Some of it is just more general. In those hospitals you talked about, take a look at the doctors. Many of them are not from this country. Take a look at the nurses. Many of them are from the Philippines and other Asian countries, so we important Catholic priests for much the same reason and sometimes to meet the needs of a particular immigrant group and sometimes simply to supplement places where there used to be people who were born and raised here but they’re not there now.

So, I think, this too, is part of the general question that is, therefore, of interest to non-Catholics, as well as, Catholics and I thank you for raising it.

GROSSMAN: Many people will say that the day-to-day work of the church, in this country, is done almost overwhelmingly by laywomen and they’re a little concerned that the church and in this visit of the public masses that the pope is not going to, sort of (ph), recognize their role. Critics will say that if the church loses its laywomen, if women start backing out and feeling this church doesn’t value them, they could lose the ballgame here. We could be heading in the direction of Europe where they have empty churches. How will the pope acknowledge the role of laywomen? How – what can the church do to let these people know that their role is valued?

GEORGE: I’m not sure how he’ll do that. I’m sure he probably will but we go to church to be converted, not to be valued, as such. None of us does. I don’t. I go to church to have my sins forgiven, first of all, because I believe Jesus is the savior of the world and he’s available to us, graciously, because he’s created a church that makes his actions real, in the sacraments. Those are all actions of the missing Christ, so I’m not doing anybody a favor by coming to church. I go because otherwise, where do I go for salvation and so, I think, women and men are interested in salvation and that’s where they turn; where else do we turn?

Within the dynamics of the church, yourself, things change according to culture and so, we must always be very appreciative of people and what they bring but finally, what the church brings is Jesus and that’s why we’re all there. We work it out as best we can because there are other dynamics working there, too but I think that I don’t imagine that he’ll address it in those terms, exactly but certainly, he appreciates and certainly, the bishops appreciate it, as do the priests, the fact that the parishes depend upon women, to a great extent. Most of them are volunteers and even when they’re not, they are the ones, very often, who are the face of the church; that people first hear when they phone; that people first see when they come into a rectory, so they’re there because they deeply believe in Christ and find him in the church and for that we’re extremely grateful to God, first of all, for his grace but to them, for their cooperation with it.

TOLSON: Cardinal George, on the pope’s schedule, is a meeting with Hindu leaders and Muslim leaders; Jewish leaders; Christian leaders, is this in response to the fact that this pope has gotten criticized for, perhaps, being critical of other religions; his speech, in Germany; the very public conversion of a Muslim man.

GEORGE: Well, the speech in Germany was about secularism, more than about Islam. That was turned aside because you’re talking about what happens when you separate faith and reason. When you have defeatism (ph) you’ve got violence, very often. When you have secular utopias, you have violence, too, as we know from the last century, so he was talking about a pacific, a peaceful society, has a public conversation between faith and reason and that was the purpose of the talk.

I think, however, if you look at why he’s talking to the non-Christian religions, in Washington and the Ecumenical partners in the Christian faith, in New York, is because the popes do that when they come to this country. John Paul II did it every time, you know, so this is what they always do. These are very, very important conversations and if he had just begun his work, as pope and he was only elected last week and he came to this country, he would still talk to these people, so I don’t think it should be put in that context because if you put it the context of a deep desire on the part of all who recognize Christ as the Lord, could be one and visibly one in a church because that’s his Christ. That’s Christ’s desire and with the rest, then, to be at peace with others, particularly, the Jewish people who are our ancestors in the faith but after that all the other religions, as well. I think that’s why he’s talking to them and I’m not quite sure what he’s going to discuss with them but those conversations have, generally, been very helpful to us anyway.

SLEN: Time for one short question each.

TOLSON: Right. Well, there’s much talk of crisis but many people are in – within the church are pointing to good signs and pointing to very conservative dioceses, like, the diocese of Lincoln that its actually growing in the number of vocations there; the number of priests and so on, is this, in some ways, a vindication of this pope’s doctrinal clarity and strength of teaching? Is this – give hope to the church?

GEORGE: There will always be doctrinal clarity. That’s our job and that’s neither liberal nor conservative. It’s simply true. Sometimes it strikes people as conservative; sometimes it’s liberal, depending, upon what’s being addressed. The pope will continue to preach, in that fashion, as did all his predecessors and will all his successors. That’s their one purpose on earth, to point to Christ, risen from the dead and the consequences that flow from our following him as disciples in his body, the church.

What’s a vindication, what’s not, sometimes the church is strong; sometimes she’s weak. The important thing is to be faithful, as Mother Teresa said so clearly and we look at our own sinfulness and know that we’re not faithful all the time. We look, sometimes, at our own teaching and recognize that we’re not quite up to the measure of the apostolic faith and so, we keep changing in order to be more faithful. That’s the context in which the pope is here because that’s the context in which he’s everywhere.

Sometimes, as I say, the church is able to respond well; sometimes not but the church isn’t there to make people comfortable. If you’re really comfortable, in the Catholic Church, I think there’s something wrong. I’m not always comfortable in the Catholic Church. If I were going to make up a church, myself, according to my image and likeness, I don’t know that it’d be much like Catholicism. The church is there to call us to conversion, to change us and so, he’ll do both. He’ll comfort us and encourage us and he will also ask us to convert more fully, more radically (ph), so we’ll be a whole new people.

GROSSMAN: Pope Benedict is coming, of course, to a country that mostly remembers John Paul II, who was a stadium star – a charismatic speaker – and everybody remembers the twinkle in those blue eyes but this is a shy man and a scholarly man. Everybody knows that he’s a scholar. Everyone knows that he’s very orthodox; tell us something about the pope that will surprise us. What do we not know about this pope that we should know; that we should watch for?

GEORGE: Oh, Cathy, you know pretty well, as much as, I do, I suspect but also, remember about John Paul II, when he came he was criticized and the same questions were asked around him that are being asked right now by you. So, he was not universally acclaimed until he died and everybody discovered, well, there was something here, maybe, more than we thought. So, the same thing is true now. You’ve described him very well. The pope is kind of a shy man. He’s a scholar. He’s a professor. He’s a great intellectual. He’s also a very holy man. I think he tries, like all of us, to be faithful to the Lord and – so that will come across. His sincerity will come across because its there. It’s not a game and he doesn’t play games. He comes in and he proclaims what he has to. He does it in a way that’s different. He’ll be more reserved and that’s his personality and he’s, however, been able to rise to these large occasions where he’s not as comfortable as he is in small groups.

What will he show that might surprise people? Well, if people think that he’s a curmudgeon they’ll discover he’s not but that’s – not because he’s changed but because, maybe, they didn’t have the right idea.

People will be surprised, according to what the impression they might have had before he came. I suppose it’ll vary, won’t it? I hope that people will see him more clearly as he leaves but I think what he would say is that its really not too important who he is. What’s important is that he is the successor of Peter and in that sense, if he leaves with the Catholic’s faith strengthened and the other people understanding that here’s a man of goodwill who wants us to live in peace, then, the journey, the trip will be a great success. That’s my prayer. I think it’s his, too.

SLEN: Cardinal Francis George is president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops – also, Archbishop of Chicago. Thank you, sir, for being with us on Newsmakers.

GEORGE: Thank you very much. God bless you.

SLEN: Jay Tolson, Cathy Grossman – let’s look at the pope’s visit in a larger sense of the American body politic. Will the pope’s visit have an effect on our politics? Will he be talking about politics or will we just be interpreting that he’s talking about politics?

GROSSMAN: I think he won’t speak directly about politics. His papal ambassador says only babies and fools will forecast and he doesn’t think the pope is either a baby or a fool. I think, though that the American people can’t resist reading politics into everything. The drop of a leaf will read politics into it, so I think that we will interpret those things, according, each – probably to our own agendas.

TOLSON: Well, I think one of the interesting things people will be, I think, talking about which direction the Catholic voter may be going in the next election and whether this visit will have any effect on it. Of course, there’s a larger discussion of what role religion, in general, will play in the election and I think many people are saying its not going to be as decisive in this coming presidential election, as it was the last one.

SLEN: Why not?

TOLSON: A debatable – for one reason, because the evangelical block that was mobilized so effectively, in the last two elections, is now beginning to break up, so I think the influence of the evangelicals, some 25 percent of the American voters, is now going to be a little less predictable and when its less predictable, people, I think, including commentators like us, will have a harder time of pointing to religion as being a key factor here, in an obvious way and having an obvious partisan hue but you know, it will be there under the surface, in a variety of ways and I just don’t think is dramatically or obviously as in previous elections and of course, the question is, what about this very large block of Catholic voters?

GROSSMAN: Well, I think, actually that some sociologists looking at the numbers, in the last couple years, have said that the evangelicals may have overreached in their claim that they put Bush into office and there are some who will argue that statistically, it was in fact, the Catholic swing vote that made the difference. And of course, Catholics are presented – none of the candidates, – the three viable candidates right now – are Catholic and all of them present that dilemma of choice, of balancing because they might align with the church on certain issues and not at all, on other issues, so I think the Catholic swing voter is up for grabs.

SLEN: So, there really isn’t a Catholic voting block?

GROSSMAN: Not in this election.

TOLSON: Well, it’s tended, over time, to be democratic, in presidential elections, with some exceptions, like, Reagan, for example.

GROSSMAN: Yes.

TOLSON: But it tends, not by a large margin, to be democratic and who knows whether, you know, any kind of fallout from his visit could have an effect in swaying Catholic voters one way or another. For example, if the pope emphasizes life issues that might revive the issue. It hasn’t been much in discussion yet, in the campaign. It’ll be interesting to see whether that brings such – that issue to the fore but there have been other issues rather than values issues that have been preoccupying voters and therefore, the candidates.

SLEN: Do you ….

GROSSMAN: Well, on the …

SLEN: Go ahead.

GROSSMAN: … on the subject of what defines a value issue that was another hot button after 2004. Many people felt that it was a misreading of those polls and the questioning was wrong in those polls because many people consider peace and social justice to actually be social values. They saw themselves as values voters when they voted against the Iraq war, for example but they didn’t get counted in that category because of the way the poll was structured. So, in the last two years, the evangelical left and the mainstream Christian left – mainline Christian left, have also come forward and said, excuse us but we have values. We vote. It’s become a lot more diffuse.

TOLSON: Absolutely.

SLEN: Now, final question, the pope speech at the UN, what import should we put on that or what import is the Vatican putting on that speech?

TOLSON: I think that in addition to war issues, there will be a heavy emphasis on poverty and debt, debt forgiveness, the need for that. That was an agenda very high on John Paul IIs agenda, you know, an item very high on his agenda and I think that this pope will use that – this occasion to bring that back up.

GROSSMAN: I think the pope is going to have one thread that goes through so many of these meetings. The United Nations and the fact, as well, is the inter-religious and ecumenical meetings and that is, the need for, from his perspective, a common moral vocabulary. He draws it from natural law that which everybody might agree on regardless of their religious background or their nationality. He can take that argument to the United Nations and say, no matter your nation state, we have to uphold these principles and he can take it to other religions and say, regardless of your path to God, we can agree on these points.

SLEN: OK, Cathy Grossman, USA Today and Jay Tolson, U.S. News & World Report, thank you for being on Newsmakers.

TOLSON: Pleasure to be here.

GROSSMAN: Thank you so much for inviting me.

END