INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

C-SPAN’S “NEWSMAKERS”

Guest: Majority Whip, Representative James Clyburn (D-SC)

Reporters: David Lightman, McClatchy Newspapers & Lauren Whittington, Roll Call

Moderator: C-SPAN

TAPE DATE: Thursday, January 17, 2007

AIR DATE/TIME: SUNDAY, January 20, 2008 at 10 a.m. and 6 p.m. ET

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PETER SLEN: Well, the South Carolina Primary is coming up next Saturday, January 26th, and here to talk about that and other issues is the House Majority Whip Representative James Clyburn, a Democrat of South Carolina.

Here to question him on Newsmakers, David Lightman, McClatchy Newspapers which has quite a presence in South Carolina, and Lauren Whittington of Roll Call Newspaper. Congressman Clyburn, if I could start.

You're well-known to have a pretty good political operation down in South Carolina. Big contest down there among the Democrats. You have not yet endorsed. Will you remain neutral before the primary?

JAMES CLYBURN: Yes, I will. I think that it's very, very important to South Carolina, my beloved state, and to the South Carolina Democratic Party that I stay neutral in this.

I promised the legislators back when I asked them to take over and fund our primary, that I would do everything that I possibly could to make sure that that effort contribute to our number one industry, which is tourism. And I think if that if I were to inject myself into this race at this particular juncture it could very well jeopardize the credibility of that primary.

And I also promised the leaders of my party that this would be a way to rebuild our party in South Carolina. And that cannot be done unless everybody feel that the primary opportunities are open to them. If they were to think that I'm in any way setting anyone of them out of the process, I don't think I'll be keeping faith with my party or with my state.

SLEN: David Lightman.

DAVID LIGHTMAN: Sir, you have a pretty good sense of the African American community in Columbia and in your state. What's going to tip the balance? When people go to the polls on January 26th and have to choose between Senator Clinton, Senator Obama, Senator Edwards, what's going to tip the balance? What's going to make them say I want X instead of Y?

CLYBURN: I think it's people feeling who has the best opportunity to win in November. This whole notion of change runs pretty rapid, not just inside our party, but with the people in the country as well.

And I think that's why you're now hear Republican contenders now using that word almost with reference, because they know that most people in this country feel that we are on the wrong track, that we have moved internationally as well as domestically in the wrong direction. And they want to see a change in direction of things.

And so the candidate that puts forth a good argument for change and can demonstrate that he or she will be the best person to effectuate that change, that's the person who will carry the day in South Carolina.

LIGHTMAN: But let me follow that, how the voters determine who the winner would be. In other words I saw this in Iowa and New Hampshire at the last minute, particularly in New Hampshire.

People said gee, Senator Clinton can win. Senator Obama, maybe not.

CLYBURN: Right.

LIGHTMAN: How do they determine that? Do they look at polls? Do they talk to their neighbors? How do they make that judgment?

CLYBURN: I think that voters have a certain antenna that allow them to get a feel, a connection to candidates, and they tend to express that. People feel that if this person tugs at my heart strings, if this person instills in me hope, aspirations, then that person could very well do the same for other voters as well.

And so I think it's going to be a personal decision made based upon that particular voter feel for a particular candidate.

LAUREN WHITTINGTON: I can follow up on that. You told the Wall Street Journal I believe in the beginning of January, after Senator Obama won Iowa, that unless something untoward were to happen it was your believe that Senator Obama would run away with South Carolina because he is the candidate of change. He represents change. Do you still believe that?

CLYBURN: Well what I said, if you recall, that it had to do with Iowa – within the context of Iowa. And I said at that time that irrespective of how many African Americans were to vote in this primary, in South Carolina that is, if they feel that Senator Obama has no chance of winning, they're not going to vote for him.

But if he demonstrates as he did in Iowa that he does have a chance of winning. And if he can go into a state like Iowa with almost no African American influence, very little, on the outcome and demonstrate that he can be transformational, that he could transcend those racial lines, that he would probably run away with South Carolina because of the influence of the African American vote.

He demonstrated that in Iowa, and he did not win in New Hampshire. Now the question is how will people evaluate those two things? And I also said unless something really intervened, there have been some interventions in this campaign that nobody feels comfortable with, the question becomes whether or not those things will have impact on voters as they go to the polls.

WHITTINGTON: Back to Iowa, how much pressure did you feel from within the African American community in your state to perhaps make an endorsement of Senator Obama because he had shown his electability?

CLYBURN: A lot of pressure. Pressure inside the African American community, pressure inside my own family, because my family members are split on this campaign. So the pressure was great, and quite frankly there was a point in time when I wondered whether or not I would even stand it.

But as I usually do in these matters I went off to myself and I said that it was in my best interest, it was in the best interest of my party, in the best interest of my state for me to hold on to the commitment that I made, and I held onto that commitment. So the pressure's always great when race surfaces in these campaigns, but I think that's all behind us now.

I applaud the candidates for doing and saying the things they've done and said. I think when you look at the record of all of these candidates, all three of them, you've got to say that any one of them will serve us as a party and will serve African American community very, very well.

And so I'm proud of all three of them and can live and be comfortable with any one of them as our standard bearer.

SLEN: Congressman, what's your relationship with the Clintons and how far back does it go?

CLYBURN: My relationship started with the Clintons I guess during President Clinton's governorship in Arkansas. I met him through Dick Riley when Dick Riley was governor of South Carolina.

You may recall that before coming to the Congress I ran a state agency in South Carolina serving on the four governors – two Democrats and two Republicans. And during the Dick Riley administration I was invited by him to a meeting once to meet Bill Clinton, and that's how far back that goes.

And in fact when President Clinton ran for president in 1992, early in that campaign a lot of people felt after the presidency of Jimmy Carter there would be a long, long time before another senator got elected president of the United States.

Well, a lot of Southern African Americans did not want to be identified early on in that campaign with President Clinton. And President Clinton may not remember this, but Joe Reed down in Alabama called me when they were inviting President Clinton to address the Alabama Black Democrats at their annual meeting.

And he called me in South Carolina, asked me would I come to Alabama to introduce Governor Clinton at their annual luncheon. And if you go and check the record you will see that this South Carolinian is a person that introduced Bill Clinton on that day, because those people in Alabama were not sure if they wanted to be identified with that campaign.

SLEN: Both the Obama and Clinton campaigns have been accused of playing the race card. Do you think they have?

CLYBURN: No, I don’t think they have at all. I think there’s been a lot of misunderstanding of this, and that’s why what I said in my New York Times piece that people talk about all the time, I said that when I was told about what was said, that we have to be very, very careful with how we say things and how we speak about that particular era.

The fact of the matter is everybody played a role. We all had roles to play in all of this. Lyndon Johnson understood, and he said when he signed the Voting Rights act, he understood that he was signing away his party’s dominance in Southern politics when he signed that bill.

Now, he signed that bill simply, this is the Voting Rights Act now; Bloody Sunday is what led to that. We had already gotten the Civil Rights Act in 1964. Now nobody can tell me that Bloody Sunday did not have an impact on the country and on the Congress that led to the Voting Rights Act, because voting rights was kept off the table from when we had the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I think one of the problems we have with so much of this is that those of us who are a little bit of a student of history, we tend to factor all of these things into our thinking process, and a lot of people don’t recall what happened here in Washington, that great petition, the I Have a Dream speech that led to the Civil Rights Act of ’64.

A lot of people don’t remember Bloody Sunday that led to the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and so when we talk about all of that we ought to be careful, and we ought to also give homage to the Republicans back then.

J. Everett Dirkson, I often was never really put to the test, but I asked my wife, when our children, our first born was coming along, and I asked my wife to allow, if it were a son, me to name that son J. Everett (ph) in honor of J. Everett Dirkson. That’s how much I felt about that period. This Democrat wanting to name his son after that Republican and that’s the way I feel about that era.

LIGHTMAN: Let me – since we’re bringing up race, let’s let me ask you what impact, if any, does race play in the upcoming primary? Is it helpful to Obama as a source of, like, pride? Does it hurt him? Is there a subtle vote there of people who say I’m not going to vote for an African-American candidate? We pick a little bit of that up, frankly, in New Hampshire, but is it – talk about how race plays, if at all, in South Carolina.

CLYBURN: Race plays everywhere in the country, and let’s just admit that; to a greater degree in some parts of the country than in other parts. Will people go to the polls on the 26^th of January and think race in South Carolina? Many of them will.

Now, a lot of them will transcend that. Every one of them will think it. Some of it will be thoughts that will guide them to the negative. With others it will be thoughts that will guide them to the positive.

SLEN: Who does it help? Who does it hurt?

CLYBURN: Well, I’m not too sure. I’ll tell you a quick story that I said to my eldest daughter when she was going off to school. I told her that when she got to the university what she was going to find, that there were a lot of things that were going to happen to her simply because her name was Clyburn.

Some of it she would like. Some of it she would not like, but in the end those things will kind of wash out, but I also told her a lot of things are going to happen to you because you are female. A lot of things are going to happen to you because you are black.

These are things that are challenges that you will have to work hard to overcome. Friendships may get washed out, but race and gender are things that are hard, sometimes, to overcome.

LIGHTMAN: Let me ask you this. This may be a little bit of an internal question. Reporters and pollsters are really challenged on this, because people will not say I’m voting for X because he is black or I’m voting against X because he’s black, or – how does one gauge this? How does one find out about this?

CLYBURN: I don’t think you can until it’s all over. The fact of the matter is we have experienced that with the governorship of California. I remember when Bradley…

LIGHTMAN: Tom Bradley.

CLYBURN: …Tom Bradley’s race, and the polls had him with eight points up and he lost.

LIGHTMAN: North Carolina; Harvin Yan (ph).

CLYBURN: Harvard Yat (ph) was up and he lost in the Senate race, and Virginia…

WHITTINGTON: Doug Wilder.

CLYBURN: …and Doug Wilder. Yes, absolutely. Well, Doug Wilder was leading five or six points going into the election, and yet it took us three or four days afterward to determine who the winner was, less than one percent, so opposed to sometimes, I don’t know whether they are a little giddish (ph) about asking probing questions.

A lot of times we’ve said that our, you know, the people just don’t tell the truth about race. Most of us don’t tell the truth about race. Most white people don’t tell the truth about race and most black people don’t tell the truth about race.

The fact of the matter is, it is a very volatile issue in our society, and sooner or later it’ll get behind us. I just hope sooner rather than later.

WHITTINGTON: Do you think race will have any impact on turnout in South Carolina, and can you talk a little bit about turnout? I believe this is the first time that you all are having an actual primary instead of a caucus?

CLYBURN: No, we had a primary four years ago. It was – but the state didn’t pay for it. It was paid for the by the party, and it was that record of four years ago that I use in my arguments before the Democratic National Committee, and I said to them, all these other people are asking for this. I know we can do it in South Carolina because we’ve done it, and look at what we did four years ago, and I think that was what gave us this primary.

WHITTINGTON: Do you think more people will turn out this year because of Senator Obama?

CLYBURN: Oh, sure, absolutely, and I think more women will turn out because of Mrs. Clinton. I think there are a lot of people who will be turning out because Senator Edwards is a native South Carolinian. He was born in Seneca, South Carolina. He attended (INAUDIBLE) University for a while.

SLEN: But is he a factor?

CLYBURN: Oh I think so, absolutely. Once again, if any one of these three were not to show up on the ballot on the 26^th it would have an impact on the election. Now, the question is the extent of that impact is another thing.

LIGHTMAN: I was going to say, can I turn to the economy, because having just come out of Michigan, of the primary, it was a largely Republican contest, but clearly the economy is the number one issue by far, and I suspect it will be again in South Carolina, but here’s my question. Are people looking for specific remedies, or are they simply looking for something more intangible, i.e., leadership? What are they looking for on the economy?

CLYBURN: I think it’s a combination of both. You cannot say to people I’m going to provide leadership. They’ll say OK, good; define that leadership. You’ve got to tell me what it is I can expect from you. That’s why people want to see their plans, ok, or everybody’s for universal access to health care.

The question is will your plan be a benefit to me? And I think that when you talk about health care, when you talk about energy policies, I think people want to see what it is. For instance, South Carolina, and this is what I think is kind of interesting as I listen to some of this debate; about 54 percent of our energy in South Carolina is generated by nuclear. You know, we are a majority nuclear state, yet that is an issue that some of these candidates are sort of gingerly about, and so the question then become what can we expect from you in getting us to energy independence?

Can we get to energy independence with just solar and wind and ethanol, or other alternative sources of energy and not have nuclear in the mix? There are some of us who think you can’t do that, and that’s going to be a problem for us.

LIGHTMAN: Not to minimize that, but I’ve found in Michigan, where the economy is just reeling, that people wanted this impression of strength. Everybody wanted energy independence, health care. That’s one of the reasons Mitt Romney did well. They liked his resume.

In South Carolina you have the change versus experience versus Edwards. Again, are people looking at specific plans or are they going to look at that intangible? Who shows that strength?

CLYBURN: I’m going to say it again. It’s a combination of both. You know, when I feel a certain identity with a candidate, I tend to try to find in that candidate those things that will be a benefit to me. If I don’t see it, I think I can get over my identity problems and if I do see it, it’s more comfortable for me. And I have very often seen in a candidate everything what I think will be there expect that there’s no personal connection between me and that candidate.

Once again, I get over that and go for what I think is going to be a benefit.

SLEN: Lauren Whittington

LAUREN WHITTINGTON: Regardless or looking forward to November regardless of who the parties nominees are, is the economy going to be the number one issue in this election, is it going to be Iraq?

CLYBURN: I think the economy. I think that the economy was big the last time. I do believe that Iraq was a big problem because it was in the newspapers all the time. I really believe the conversation in the last election changed over Katrina and Katrina had very little to do with Iraq.

I don’t believe that the incompetence that was being displayed by this administration in managing this war in Iraq really set in with the American people until they saw the incompetence in their reaction that’s a Katrina reader and I believe that’s what changed the conversation in the country.

SLEN: Mr. Clyburn a little bit about the economy. You met this week with the leadership in the House about a stimulus package, leaders are meeting with President Bush also this week, are the Pay-go rules going to be thrown out when it comes to promoting the economy?

CLYBURN: Well, I’m for one argued that Pay-go aught not be primary to this discussion. I think what ought to be primary to this discussion is whether or not we’re going to get the infusion to this economy that will stimulate the economy. Can we do something to the tune of 100, to me, 120, 150 billion dollars in short order that will be temporary.

That it will be targeted and that we can get done in a timely way. Those three Ts have got to prevail. Now once we’ve looked at then I think we’ll look to see whether or not we can do this and maintain Pay-go. It’s where we start from.

Where I’ve had offerings from some of my friends inside my Congress that their going to start out whether or not to pay for it. Well the question is do you pay for it by offsetting the benefit of it. So if you put $120 billion infusion into the economy and within the same timeframe offset it, you negated the stimulus or the stimuli because we don’t have more than one thing here.

So what I think there is that there may be as the economists tell us that we can do the infusion this year and offset it three or four years down the road. So I’m told that OMB will look at this thing and if you can do the offset within five years then I think that is the time to start talking about Pay-go.

But if you can not do it, if you got to offset it within the timeframe of this impact you will negate the impact.

WHITTINGTON: I have one final question. You’ve talked about when you went in front of the DNC to push for South Carolina to get this primary date, do you think the primary system is broken as we’ve seen this year with the compacted calendar and do you think that after this year you would be willing to look at ways to change it?

CLYBURN: Absolutely, got to look at ways to change this. I wouldn’t call it broken but I will say that what we have done with this primary, what a lot of states have done with the primary, we’re not serviced well and we’ve got to see about either having a reasonable approach to this, you’ve got to spread this thing out. We can not front load these things as we have done this year. That to me negates what a primary aught to be and I think do this thing in such a way that we won’t make hasty decisions.

To have 17 states going on day and that one day being five days after a state like Florida and less than seven days after South Carolina, that doesn’t make sense to me.

LIGHTMAN: Twenty-four states and (INAUDIBLE). Yeah. Looking ahead to the fall. Where’s the Democratic Party most vulnerable in the election?

CLYBURN: I think if I were to say our weak point without knowing who the candidate is, will be whether or not people feel that we can be good stewards of this economy. Will not people feel that we can restore creditability for this great country of ours around the world.

I just came out of a trip in four different countries and I can tell you this election is being watched in other parts of the world like no election that we’ve had in my lifetime. People look to America for leadership and direction and that is going to be the most vulnerable spot for both parties.

LIGHTMAN: Three major democratic candidates who are left, would the public perceive each of them as a potentially good steward of the economy?

CLYBURN: Well I don’t know. Once again, you have to wait until all of this gets sorted out and you have to see our candidate and the other parties candidate, and then maybe a third party candidate.

It is only when people take measure of the people who they have to choose between. Right now you have four or five people in the Republican side, you got three people on the Democratic side, and we’re all fighting for that prize. And until that’s established we’re not going to get a good feel for what the other people feel around the world.

SLEN: Congressman Clyburn could a democrat realistically take South Carolina this fall?

CLYBURN: Yes, absolutely. If this economy continues on its current path, we’re going to do hopefully within the next 30 to 45 days a stimulus package that hopefully will get us moving in the right direction. I don’t think we’re going to be able to sustain in that one package.

I feel deep down inside that there’s going to have to be a second package. I think that there’s going to have to do something on the backend of this that will show that we can sustain a movement and if that does not happen between now and elections in November then I can see South Carolina coming back to the Democratic Party.

SLEN: House Majority Whip James Clyburn has been our guest on Newsmakers.

CLYBURN: Thanks so much for having me.

(BREAK)

SLEN: We are back with our reporter round table David Lightman of McClatchy Newspapers and Lauren Whittington of Roll Call. Lauren Whittington, we spent an inordinate amount of time talking about race. Is this campaign currently about race?

WHITTINGTON: Well it has been for the past week or so, but I do think, as Congressman Clyburn said that the candidates, presidential candidates themselves have done a pretty good job to this point of moving beyond that, and getting their surrogates to move beyond that, and I think that certainly he is glad about that and we will see what happens in the next week.

I think one of the most interesting things he said on the issue of race was just the personal, how much his family was influencing, the pressure that he received from his own family to make an endorsement, which he said he was not going to do; and you can tell it really was something that weighed on him.

SLEN: David Lightman has the media lazared too much on this as has been noted?

LIGHTMAN: No, there is an undercurrent there and as we said during the program, none of us quite know how to get at it. People don’t talk about it. You don’t want to bring it up yourself. It is a very, very difficult issue. I am not sure it is the dominant issue.

I am not even sure how much of an impact it has, but it is just sort of simmering under the surface. So, it is one of these things, stay tuned and watch what we do and hopefully we will be as professional as we can; but it’s a tough one.

SLEN: Finally, on the congressional level, the stimulus package that the Congress and the President are currently working on. Is this going to be a bi-partisan package or is it going to be…it started out that way; and what effect will it actually have?

LIGHTMAN: In 1993, after President Clinton was elected, we had a similar situation. He tried to put forth a stimulus package. Republicans balked, a lot of Democrats balked. In the end, it ended up being $4 billion in jobless benefits. I think, though, it is in both parties’ interest to do something this time. So I think, in the end, there will be a lot of wrangling; but I think in the end there will be some kind of stimulus.

The questions is, can they get it done in time to make a difference or is this thing going to go into July; at which time, if we are in a recession, we may be recovering already.

WHITTINGTON: And I do think it is interesting what you heard Congressman Clyburn say about how the economy will impact November and how it could even put South Carolina in play for the Democrats if something is not done on this between now and then.

SLEN: Do you agree that South Carolina is potentially in play for the democrats?

WHITTINGTON: He seemed to indicate that if nothing gets done on the economy it could I think it would be very difficult to see South Carolina being in play.

LIGHTMAN: Yes, its in play, frankly it depends who the Republican nominee is.

SLEN: David Lightman, McClatchy, Laura Whittington, Roll Call, thank you for being on Newsmakers.

WHITTINGTON: Thank you.

END